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Apprentice Tutorials Makeover
So as most of you should know, since Snowed of Lightning mentioned it above, that I will help out with the apprentice tutorials' update. I want to start ASAP, and I want to know from you guys which ones need updating. We aren't claiming which oines to do yet, but Snowed of Lightning says she wants to redo the black cat tutorial.
Which tutorials do you think need updating? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot0:41 Wed May 7
Mottled and flecked. ❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 07:03, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind a tweak to the tortoiseshell and dual-colored ones to make them a little more natural, so to say. (the ones Iceheart and Loonie did) The tortie one only shows pale torties, I think, and the dual colored one should have a bit more variety. I will say this, though. No one needs to touch Bloo's marbled tabby one- it's perfect in every way, shape, and form. 8DD —Jayce(13:56, 5/7/2014)
Yes Snowed of Lightning. That one is fine too. I agree with both of you. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot20:17 Wed May 7
The eye and shading charts need updating. And possibly the adding stripes tweak tutorial... Idk. — ferk my name is BLURRYFΛCE 20:55, 05/7/2014
We should add more diversity in tutorials, like having some be using queen blanks, deputy blanks, leader blanks, kit blanks, etc. Notquiterocketwildbokan (talk) 21:17, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
Oooh, yes, that's a fantastic idea. I find it awkward to try and tabby on a blank that isn't shown in a tutorial because that's how I learned the way the tabby stripes should go. I'm sure others feel the same, so the project and all the users would benefit from the use of more than just the warrior blank (which is the most commonly used blank) for the tutorials. — ferk my name is BLURRYFΛCE 22:50, 05/7/2014
Yes, fabulous. I was thinking that the shading placement image needs updating as well, and the color chart too; it could have a few more colors (if there are any). ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot2:02 Fri May 9
See, that's the thing with the color chart. I don't think it's a good idea to take that for perfect, since the colors are only a basic example of what you could use. It's the same with the ear pink. It should really only be used as a guide for what color area you should start with if you're new...but as this project has shown, there are a lot of different colors and shades that you could use. I'd be all for updating the shading placement to show different styles too. ^^ If someone has the time I'd say two styles for each blank but that would be madness and I don't expect anyone to sit around and do that. —Jayce(15:06, 5/9/2014)\
I've got time. I might even have time for the frigging eyes DX I already started 3 days ago I'm not even half way done cause I don't have the patience. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot23:20 Fri May 9
I think that under each section, say, dual-coloured, we should have multiple tutorials by different users. I don't think that unless they are misleading, tutorials shouldn't be replaced but kept in respect to the artists. I like Icehearts, and I don't want to see them replaced. With different tutorials under each section, then users can select from a variety of diverse styles and choose which one fits them best instead of just looking at one tutorial. Stoneclaw 01:12,5/16/2014
White and black (individual white cats and black cats I mean) is also misleading. They imply that you're not allowed to use pure white or a really really dark gray, when in fact that is quite the opposite. While it's possible (and I've done it for fun), I believe having tutorials that show using pure white and darker gray should be an option- someone once told me that using pure white was forbidden, and that's completely and totally misleading. =P —Jayce(01:12, 5/18/2014)
I agree with you all. So, now, shall we start with the tutorial's make-over? I can start with the 'tabbers' coding on the page. Then, I can place the tutorials according to their level of difficulty (Charart basics, like shading styles, eye placement, etc, then to patterns, like tabby and mottled/flecked, etc, and then tweaking, etc.). Sound like a plan? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot16:50 Mon May 19
It's more than okay with me, if you want to start with some of the basics, Hawk. What say you, PCA? Should we get started on this? —Jayce(16:26, 5/20/2014)
Sounds good to me. Might as well get this all done sooner so we can give newer users a more updated look at how us dorks over at PCA art. love you all you awesome nerds — ferk my name is BLURRYFΛCE 20:33, 05/20/2014
Okay, the tutorials have been put into tabbers. What do y'all think? I guess now we can start updating/making tutorials. So I was thinking to add:
- Texture Tutorial
- Smudged Shading Style Tutorial
- Torbie Tutorial
I know that Snowed of Lightning wants to redo/update the black cat tutorial, and I'd like to make a texture tutorial as well as update the eye placement and shading placement. I can also take care of the smudge-shading tutorial. So pretty much I just want to hog everything for myself mwahahaha No jk jk jk Is everyone okay with this? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot21:29 Tue May 20
I defiantly agree with adding texture and torbies; sounds great to me! ❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 13:00, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
I'd also like to see tutorials for how to use Pixlr, Gimp, paint.NET, and everything else that is usually used. I think it'd be helpful. User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 13:04, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
Oooh, having ones per program, or at least ones teaching the basics, would be something I'd be okay with. Although I can't help, since I use Photoshop, it's still a really good thing to consider. I feel bad when I can't help people who come and ask me, since I'm literally so inexperienced with those, especially Paint.NET and Pixlr. —Jayce(13:57, 5/30/2014)
I totally agree with Snowed of Lightning about that. Now; shall we get started? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot11:50 Mon Jun 2
I've got no complaints about getting this rolling. Let's get it started. Is each person gonna take a different one, or are we just letting everyone do their own versions? 'cause each person has different methods and I think just letting everyone share their ideas would be the easiest and fairest way to go about it. I just want to do a bi-colored and the regular black, and maybe something on white if I have the energy, and you guys can do the rest. —Jayce(15:48, 6/2/2014)
I think we should let all warrior and aboves do their own versions. As said, it's fair and everyone has their own methods and it's a good way to share ideas. owo Stoneclaw 13:37,6/5/2014
Good. Okay, let's get started. I would like to claim the torbie and texture tutorials. I'll start right away, the upload it onto the apprentice tutorials. If that's okay, anyways...☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot1:21 Sat Jun 7
I'll do my style of tabbies and smudged shading, if you guys want.Shinxy Blitz and Melody 22:34, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
Can I do one on tinted shading on white cats? User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 20:01 Sun Jul 27
Looking over the tutorials, it's very overwhelming. Also, would the finished product on many of the tutorials posted by past users probably be accepted with the recent standards? Probably not, actually. By no means do I imply to delete the older tutorials, but perhaps archive them or organize it better. Atelda insert vague subtext here 16:33, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
Not delete, but simply create more of a variety. Archiving also sounds like a good idea. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot18:45 Wed Jul 30
I like the idea or archiving them. User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 7:02 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014
If we archive them (I support that idea BTW), can I make updated versions of a few? Off of the top of my head, dual-colored cats and calicoes.Shinxy Blitz and Melody 09:57, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that is exactly what we mean. We create more tutorials from different users to have variety. Not everyone has the same opinion, thus if we archive the old ones, we can show what users now would be interested in doing, like texture. Also, art skills have changed dramatically over the years, and it would be better to create tutorials based on what PCA members today want to see. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot2:03 Wed Aug 6
Can someone make a tutorial of how to put layers under the pixel art in Pixlr? I'd appreciate it, User:Tigerbird Tigerbird-The-Great 18:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't really require a tutorial... just google it... Shinx Blitz and Melody 18:30, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
I can't find it on Google User:Tigerbird Tigerbird-The-Great 18:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
Could i make a version on how i do tortie's?--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 00:50, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
I believe it was stated somewhere above that anybody can make some, Breeze! ^_^ Shinx Blitz and Melody 09:19, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
Can there be a torbie and texture tutorial? Tigerbird-The-Great 18:36, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
Tigerbird: Im actually planning on making a tabby and texture tutorial. :) Idk about Torbie's, though.--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:13, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
Why are we already claiming and planning tutorials to do before a proper conclusion is even reached and a layout is even created? Let's not jump the gun, and focus on the planning of layout if the idea is to even progress, first. ;} Stoneclaw 20:40,8/16/2014
Stone, there is nothing wrong with planning our own tutorials right now. Other users have already planned, made, and posted it to the Apprentice Tutorial's page. It wont hurt to have the tutorials there for the time being, until a proper layout is made. The point is to have a variety of tutorials, showing different methods that us users use when we do chararts. No one is "claiming" a tutorial, because its already been stated that anyone can make one. (So sorry if this came out as rude, im honestly not intending to be. .A.)--~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:43, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
For the earpink chart, I think we should do a complete overhaul of that, maybe add a few different shades for ginger, brown, and tawny, and figuring out those ear colors. mainly ginger, the regular ginger looks so unnatural to me, I have a ginger cat and I know ginger cats and all of their noses are either bright pink, orange-pink, or pale pink. User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 11:38 PM, Tue Aug 19, 2014
Suggestion for a new requirement to become a SW
So I was thinking (I've actually had this idea for quite a while but whatever) and I think a new requirement should be added to become a sw. I think that in order to become a SW you have to nominate at least one article and it must pass in PW, PR, PB, or PC. This way users will have to help the other projects to advance in PCA and SW nominations won't be as much about pretty art. I think it would help, and when ou think about it it isn't hard at all to get a nomination in a project. x3 -Ducksauce 21:01, May 10, 2014 (UTC)
That's acutally a really good idea. Didn't this project close because of other projects being ignored? If we do this, then that means that the other projects would benifit, too. Notquiterocketwildbokan (talk) 21:03, May 10, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it did. ^ I like this idea. Not only would they be participating in other projects, they might actually learn to like working on the mainspace articles and become more active members in other projects. I'm all for this- the main focus is not PCA, but it does have fun parts. Plus, as Duck said, it really isn't very hard to nominate and get them to pass. —Jayce(21:04, 5/10/2014)
I really like this idea. I've gotten a page up to silver and it wasn't hard. Granted it was a very minor character's page, but it wasn't hard at all. Should be an easy task to accomplish for everyone. — ferk my name is BLURRYFΛCE 21:07, 05/10/2014
I agree, nominating is a piece of cake. This will probably stop the other projects being ignored (compared to the PCA). ❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 16:37, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
Really though, nothing you do can get people to work in other projects or the mainspace if they really don't interest. I don't exactly support the idea tbh, because that requirement has nothing to do with being a PCA lead. If you want the requirements to get harder, then they should be more relevant to PCA. There were many people who were PCA leads without having anything to do with other projects, because they feel that their skills don't lie with those projects. But you can't deny them a lead position if they really deserve it for that reason. Scarlet, for an example mainly edited PCA, and would you say that she didn't deserve her spot because her skills lay here, or that she didn't contribute. Same with a lot of other people that I could name before. Personally, there are other methods of trying to raise the activity in other projects. Plus, guys, PCA is still contributing. Stoneclaw 01:06,5/16/2014
I have to agree with Stoner. PCA leads are picked because of their performance in PCA not elsewhere on the wiki. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith10:29 Fri May 16 2014
Wasn't the entire reason we closed PCA in the first place to shift the focus to other projects? While the leads are picked because of the performance in PCA, it would still be nice to see them edit elsewhere every once in a while. While we can't deny them a lead spot because they don't edit in other projects, it would still be nice to see them edit elsewhere. But, it's not for everyone, as stated before. Would membership in another project be a better qualification instead of a nomination having successfully passed? You don't have to nominate- I see people who comment on discussions in other projects that are PCA users, but they'd rather not nominate. Paleh was a prime example of that (I'm not calling you out, Paleh, I swear, you were just the name I could think of off the top of my head and you were a project lead at one point too). While she didn't nominate, she was still active in other projects and helping them in whatever ways she could. —Jayce(16:22, 5/20/2014)
I think membership is too easy, you can be a member of a project and never contribute I think that it should be a nomination or an active membership, meaning they comment on stuff and stuff like that. -Ducksauce 18:25, May 20, 2014 (UTC)
I like this idea, yet at the same time, I agree that leadership performance shouldn't necessarily be based around other projects on the wiki. However, with past trends that have continued through best and worst of this wiki, I think it should be more encouraged about gaining leadership in other parts of this wiki. Generally, leaders not of PCA gain much prominence in ways such as being given a hand in helping run the wiki, being a leader in more than one project, and generally having a higher status (so to speak, there really is no denying the hierarchy). It's not to say that the leaders of other projects are necessarily good at art; however, it does show commitment, dedication, and hard work, etc. enough so to be a good leader as well as show the patience to learn the art skills. Granted, there are exceptions, but look at the key users in other projects and how they interact here. Yet, with the discussion at hand of whether it'll become necessary as a requirement to participate in other projects for leadership here, I honestly don't mind that being an effective requirement but I acknowledge the other side to it. I'd say to start, emphasize the trend of users in other projects and their effects here. Keep that pattern in constant circulation. Users with ambition might try their hand and find that they like it. And it really isn't that hard to gain notice in other projects (PC might be the exception though). Atelda insert vague subtext here 01:46, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
PCA seems to be the starting point, since it's the easiest to contribute to. It doesn't even need to be leadership in other projects. Because, I'm sorry, but telling someone they need to be a lead in another project before becoming a PCA lead isn't right and that's not fair to anyone, since each project has its individual requirements. Just focusing on art probably isn't the best way to go about it. I was PB's deputy when I was still an apprentice in this project (I joined PB first and even had a small thing with PC and PW but ended up forgetting about it since high school) and wanted to help elsewhere too), and I started contributing more in PCA after I started elsewhere since I wasn't all that good with art back then. Perhaps it should be a "requirement", so to say, but only allowing others who are leads in other projects isn't a good idea in the least. Active member, yes. Project lead???? No. —Jayce(19:03, 7/13/2014)
- You missed my point. Notice the use of the words "trend" and "patterns". And thus understand that it is an observation that I would encourage PCA to emphasize, the idea of trying new activities outside of this project through the preamble of previous success with the other users. Atelda insert vague subtext here 23:06, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
The other projects have nothing to do with PCA. PCA requirements should on revolve around PCA since it's a project itself. Because if other users simply have no interest in joining the other projects, does that mean they /can't/ become a lead? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot18:42 Wed Jul 30
Not at all. Ambitious users often are leads in PCA as well as out of PCA though. At the same time though, nominating users due to their art should not be a major factor, if a factor at all. Right now, PCA just needs active leads. Not a lot of leads, just active ones. Someone could probably be piss poor at art, but if they're commenting and suggesting good ideas quite frequently then they probably deserve a nomination. Atelda insert vague subtext here 19:04, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
- I think that having decent (not great or anything, just capability of preforming what is required on an image) is an important factor, as PCA leads should serve as teachers to the project itself. To be nominated, members should possess both skills in art (not great, just decent skills), and skill in leading/helping/teaching. To comment on how to improve an image requires skill in creating an image itself, after all. So, I don't think that decent art skill should be an overlooked factor. Of course, good leadership is obviously required so there is good interaction between leads and members. However, I think the most overlooked factor of being a lead is preforming the administrative duties of PCA, such as archiving and such. I don't want to be rude, but I've seen many leads over time which didn't do those duties as much as they were supposed to. Stoneclaw 20:35,8/16/2014
- I said it a bit more rough than probably necessary, but I think decent art skills is kind of a foundation already. While not explicitly said, the pecking order automatically underlines the fact that you ought to be a warrior when being nominated as a senior warrior. To be a warrior, you have to have 3ish(?) images approved. Yet, I agree that archiving or more mundane work is being looked over. Problem is, that it's pretty hard to gauge whether someone is willing to do it. It's pretty easy to vote, comment, and discuss topics, but the custodial duties are just as important. How that would apply to a different requirement for nominating senior warriors, I don't know, but at least we've narrowed it down to a problem. Atelda insert vague subtext here 01:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
I find that the issue revolves around lack of activity. We need active leads, as Atelda has said, who monitor and patrol PCA regularly to help keep the pages, such as the approval page, at bay so the image making process is attended to and images are archived as they should be. This should keep the pages maintained so that, once it's done, the leads don't have to worry about it for a while and can get back to things they want to do in their personal lives. Yes, I understand that not all leads have much free time on their hands, but even if they can squeeze in that little bit of activity to properly maintain the pages, it can help keep the pages as they should be because I have been told many times that the image making process is a very long one. In my honest opinion, right now, I don't think we have a sufficient amount of active leads that can help maintain this project as it should be. And the project has grown quite a bit over the past year or so. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot20:25 Sun Aug 24
As Hawk said, while leads have lives just as we do, it's not an excuse to abandon their duties. If you don't have time, why are you a lead? If you don't have the time, be an honest, mature person as a lead should be, and step down to give another person who has a little bit of time a chance. It's not a lot of time needed, either. 5-10 minutes a day, not even every single day either. It irks me greatly that people have the audacity to use the phrase 'we have lives and are busy' as an excuse to just maintain their 'position.' If that comes off rude, well, isn't the truth always a bit unpleasant to ears? Sorry, I just needed to kinda express my thoughts on that. Stoneclaw 20:57,8/25/2014
No-Rank Blank
Okay, Kate says on her blog, that the ancient cats, do not have ranks. Therefore, I'd like to bring back the idea of using a no-rank blank for these, and the characters we have descriptions for, but no rank. As-in, a true no-rank blank. This would also be good for other characters as well, I'd think- maybe Brightspirit and the others, since it's mentioned they were alive at one point in time. We also have some characters from River's group that would fall under needing this as well... Basically, for people that say we don't need the rank, we actually have a canon purpose that would require, so to say, a blank. Basically for people that can't load Kate's blog, here's what was said:
- Beebs
- Oh, Kate, I’ve been wondering this for a while, and I wonder if you know anything about this. In The Sun Trail, are the cats that aren’t elders, queens, kits, or Stoneteller sharpclaws? And Hawk Swoop, Falling Feather, and Jackdaw’s Cry being softpaws, since they’re called “young”? I’d be thankful if you know anything of the Tribe cats’ ranks at all, since it’s never mentioned in the main story.
- Kate
- The Tribe didn’t have ranks. The younger cats are just considered softpaws until they have more experience. It’s not as formalised as with the Clans.
So, yeah. Kate's declared it so. I'd also think this would apply to Gray Wing, Clear Sky, Turtle Tail, ect. Those cats who left, who used to be members of the rankless group. <shrugs> So, now we have a reason- so you can't say it's still not needed when it's explicitly said that these cats have no ranks. —Jayce(14:13, 5/30/2014)
Sounds great - a new blank! So, how would this blank look?❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 14:30, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
Well, the discussion is for the possibility of a new blank, so whether or not we'd decide on one/an artist for it/ect, depends on how this goes. =P As for how they'd look, that's all up to whomever creates blanks. That's why we vote, to decide on whichever stance we like best. —Jayce(14:34, 5/30/2014)
I agree that the new blank should be added. Also, this would probably be needed for Slant since it's not stated what rank he was before his death, since Jayfeather did see him before, implying that he was alive at one point, too. Queen Beebs 19:48, May 30, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to disagree about Slant getting one since we don't actually know if he was part of this ancient Tribe or the Tribe when they had ranks. Same with Brightspirit and her parents since they had ranks as Clan cats we just don't know what they were. Basically, I could see an ancient Tribe blank but not a no-rank blank. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith21:14 Fri May 30 2014
I think that whatever it's called, it shouldn't be called a 'no-rank' blank 'cause that doesn't sound right. If we were to decide on having these blanks, wouldn't we just have a vote like this? Stoneclaw 05:02,5/31/2014
- Yes, Stoner. That's the only fair way to ensure everyone who wants to participate gets a fair chance. —Jayce(08:12, 5/31/2014)
I'm gonna jab this for comments. There are tons of you editing, so let's go. =P —Jayce(14:00, 6/3/2014)
I'm sorry but I can't agree on this. Sure, we can have art for characters that are with ranks, but ranks represent cats who have the same thing in common. How can we display that if we don't even know about the cats who don't have ranks? Also, I think it's vital that if this DOES get through, we shouldn't make it until a while at least. There are several pages out there that still need to be finished and completed, and if we focus all oru energy on art, then I don't think they'll ever get done. Appledash the light of honor 00:16, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with this idea for a no-rank blank, because I'm sure users passing by the wiki would pass by a cat, say, Twisted Branch, and see him without an image and probably say, "Why doesn't he have an image when other cats do?" ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot22:03 Sat Jun 7
If we're making a no-rank blank to make more images then we're doing it for the totally wrong reasons and judging by what some of have said that is why you want a no-rank blank. I honestly agree with Icy I don't really think we should make one at this point. Maybe later, but when hundreds of chapter pages need to be finished, and tons of sections and whole articles have yet to be completed, we should focus on finishing the current wikia quota (articles/chararts that still need to be finished) before tackling other things. -Ducksauce 23:13, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
If anything, we do need an Ancient group blank, since Kate did confirm they have no specified ranking. I wasn't suggesting it to make more images, so I'd rather not be accused of such. I phrased it as a no-rank blank because that's what it would be. (and because it would get everyone's attention) No specific rank for Ancient cats. We don't need to use it for cats outside of that group. Why should we have to wait to create another needed blank (for a group of cats which none of our current blanks allow and we have author confirmation or are you all missing that???????). If it's not a no-rank, then fine. <shrugs> I'm more concerned about at least getting the Ancient cats images, since they were not sharpclaws, nor will their actual ranking be said in-book since they don't have one. —Jayce(03:04, 6/8/2014)
Wait... If they don't have a 'rank' then that means they're rogues/loners. A rogue isn't a rank, just a feral/stray cat. Stoneclaw 05:33,6/8/2014
Not the Ancients, Stoner? They're an organized group of cats, and they're not rogues or loners. Calling them rogues or loners makes absolutely no sense...and given the definition of rogues and loners that we have, to call them that would be wrong. o.O Rogues and loners are usually on their own, or in very small groups. They're not strays or anything like that. They're an organized group, just like the modern Tribe or Clans....they just don't have official ranks, since Kate said they weren't as formal as the Clans and such...not sure what you meant, but the Ancient cats are not loners or rogues. —Jayce(05:39, 6/8/2014)
I disagree with the no-rank blank idea. However, with the Ancient Tribe blanks, those technically would be considered a rank. They're members of the Ancient Tribe. Imo, that's more than enough to be considered a rank. We would have to make new blanks for them, since the ones we already have on here are all Modern Clans, Modern Tribe, etc. I'd like to see that on here so we have a more accurate representation of the Ancient Tribe, not just "pretty cat art" wise, but also content-wise. It shows the viewer that the cat has /significance/ in the way words can't, tbh. After all, the cats who don't have descriptions clearly aren't that vital to the series. We have descriptions for the ancients, so they are clearly important. i'm sorry this is so wordy — ferk my name is BLURRYFΛCE 13:57, 06/14/2014
Would it just be easier then to do an Ancient cat rank? User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 01:17, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
I fully support this. it would be a great idea and many cats would finally get and image, and artists a chance to express themselves. It's now just for and image though, it also makes the cats pages more complete. Shoot me down if i'm wrong. =^-^= Neverendingmoon (talk) 21:14, July 11, 2014 (UTC)Moony
Can we get some comments on this??? —Jayce(01:04, 7/29/2014)
Honestly, I do agree with the creation of no-rank blank. The ancient cats do have at least some kind of place in their tribe, like Stoneteller or the kits and queens. What exactly are the rest of the, though? What place do they hold in their tribe? They hunt and protect. That should count as a rank. And since they are an organized group, they should get a blank, because considering the amount of ancient cats, there are actually very few of them. We have a cite that the Ancient cats had no ranks, thus they should get a blank. This wiki states that you need to have a cite, well there we have one. The blank process is very long, so if we were to actually create this blanks, we should get started very soon. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot18:40 Wed Jul 30
No-rank is rather ambiguous; at least name them the Ancient Tribe blank. Atelda insert vague subtext here 18:59, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
I just want to repeat that I like the idea of an Ancient Tribe blank but a "no-rank" blank. We don't need a blank for cats without a rank as all cats have a rank we just don't know it. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith22:38 Wed Jul 30 2014
If you would say that it would be an Ancient Tribe blank, would that count out the Cats of the Park that have unknown ranks, like Arc? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot23:40 Sun Aug 3
They wouldn't get images. Since most seem to be for an Ancient Tribe blank, shall we go ahead and move forward with that? —Jayce(21:51, 8/6/2014)
I believe so. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot0:00 Sun Aug 10
I say go for it. Shinx Blitz and Melody 22:39, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
Final call for comments, guys? If no one else speaks, I'd like to move ahead with the next step. This would be an Ancient Tribe blank, not a no-rank, as it appears that the majority likes the idea for a blank for them. —Jayce(22:43, 8/14/2014)
Go for it! User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 11:33 PM, Tue Aug 19, 2014
What Rocket said. Although, how are we deciding the artist? The same way we did the Softpaw and (Presumably, I was absent from PCA at the time) the Queen and Starclanners? ~Shinx Blitz and Melody 19:22, August 21, 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that is the only fair way to do it. We're not going to just go "oh I want to do the blanks so that's that" like the apprentice blank thing. These will be done based on the same vote, which I'm going to put up once it reaches midnight on the wiki clock. —Jayce(19:24, 8/21/2014)
OK, sounds fair. I can't wait to see what everybody's ideas are! ~Shinx Blitz and Melody 20:23, August 21, 2014 (UTC)
//Pokes this// I'msorryamIbeingrude? ~Shinx Blitz and Melody 18:23, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
Forum is here and sorry for the delay. I got called into work a couple more days than expected. —Jayce(18:34, 8/25/2014)
Tweak Week
Wow, haven't heard that in a while, if at all, have you? Given the activity of the project and the deprivation of comments that all artists need, a focused effort might be change needed, at least temporarily.
Tweak week is a misnomer for the event as it usually lasts a month. In the past, it usually happened one a year, sometimes every six months occurring often between books. During tweak week, all the tweaks and redos nominated would be completed within the time constraint. What is now the approval page, would be frozen, time and everything.
Concerning ranks, kits and apprentices would be considered on equal grounds. They'd be allowed to only do one redo/tweak at a time while warriors and above can do two. Improving rank is up to the project although if a kit completes two tweaks or a redo, I'd say they'd be fine to move up to apprentice. As for apprentices, a redo could easily qualify as one of their three images they need to complete for a higher rank.
Timeline-wise, if we did it every six months, then there would be five months where everyone can nominate images. Reservations for tweaks/redos should probably be limited to four or five for warriors. If allowed, kits/apprentices could reserve one image, but with comments of whether they can improve that image when it is being voted on. Depending on the number of tweaks/redos approved through the votes, a user can work on a tweak or redo for a maximum time of one or two weeks.
Through tweak week, we can shift the focus provoking more activity for one sector of the project temporarily and then always shift back to the other part of the project. Atelda insert vague subtext here 20:23, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
How exactly do you do the image nominations? Is it like it is on the tweak page? Do you just go crazy looking for images that need to be tweaked or redone? In the weeks before the tweak 'week' are the tweaks/redos frozen? User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 8:31 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014
- The tweak nomination page would be open all the time for people to nominate images, so don't go crazy , heh. And all tweaking/redoing would be frozen until tweak week. Atelda insert vague subtext here 20:34, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks! When do you think tweak week will happen? User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 8:42 PM, Wed Jul 30, 2014
- It's only a suggestion for right now. That'll probably be decided if this idea goes through. Atelda insert vague subtext here 20:46, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
Meh, I don't see the need for this. Even if the project doesn't have a lot of people right now, there's really not a need for tweak week. The project is just slower and I could see extending the time limit on tweaks or redoes or something but tweak week seems unnecessary as after this batch of approved images there isn't a whole lot else. We might as well accept that until the wiki gains more users again the project's pace will be lot slower. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith22:44 Wed Jul 30 2014
Maybe we should wait for a little. Alternatively, we could freeze the approval page from new images and get all the ones there approved, and then have the tweak week. ❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 23:12, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Breezey. I see no need for it at all. The project's slower than it used to be, yeah, but we really don't need another "tweak week". The images get done as they get done, simple as that. —Jayce(00:10, 7/31/2014)
Images get done, hm? 24 hours for the tweak page has become three days. Chararts on the approval page go for days without being commented on. Yes, the project is slower, yet that should mean we should eliminate a part of the project in order to focus on the more necessary items. Center the comments and activity on the major part of the project rather than try to divide and conquer because the project does not have the man power for it. Atelda insert vague subtext here 01:23, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
Ah, yes, sometimes the images do go more than 24 hours without comments, because the leads are in fact busy. I know I've worked at least 110 hours in the past three weeks alone. That's at least 36 hours a week, and a lot of them were day shift/night shift/day shift again- therefore, when I come home, I am tired. That's why Duck's been commenting on some sections (which I do thank him for giving me that head's up ^^) to say that it's been a few days; to remind us since I've been busy with work, and Beebs was away for a good thirteen days. Sometimes, it happens. And images also go many days without uploads either, so that isn't to blame the leads for. We can't always comment if a user does not reupload their images, or else we're going to end up repeating ourselves. There's only so much we can do if the artists don't say anything either. It's a two-way street, and my images have gone five days without comments as well. —Jayce(01:34, 7/31/2014)
its not like youre the lord of activity atelda e.e anyway the other projects are slower too, i dont see anyone suggesting we axe parts of those? david 🌈 01:43, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that I haven't been active, yet there is no need to discredit me in such an insulting way, Skt. Please be courteous. Atelda insert vague subtext here 03:38, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
I kinda have to agree with Trollsky. Atelda, you honestly shouldn't be the one to talk about being not getting things done beacuse you yourself isn't a graet example. For now, PCA is being slow, but that's a good pace because we get work done efficently and slow means taking time on it, so I don't see why this is even being discussed. Appledash the light of honor 01:45, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
- I need not explanations or blame and if you want to get personal, this isn't the place for it as I'm not pinpointing people. If I wanted to blame the leads, I would have outright said something. If I wanted to try to fix the lead situation, this discussion would have a different title and subject. However, I do hold the leads responsible as to why they are not trying to compensate and work with the little activity. Easiest way to cope with lack of activity for such a big project like PCA is to pull back a stem if there's a good alternate that'll complete the job. Tweak week has worked many times before (to clarify: many times before the implantation of the tweak page). I'm completely aware of outside situations as I have experienced them. I'm not asking for more activity; I'm asking for an alternative solution to optimize the activity and make it less spread out. Atelda insert vague subtext here 01:53, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
Then if you're gonna do that, hold the entire project responsible. Perhaps the tweak week isn't a good alternative though. PCA then, is not PCA now. I've been in PCA since 2010, which is before you even joined, Atelda. The userbase then and the userbase now are two completely different groups, save for a couple members (like Icy and myself). Saying that something will work now because it worked in the past doesn't really make sense to me. —Jayce(01:57, 7/31/2014)
- The leads are always responsible as they guide the project. The blame for everything is always put on the leads. I know as well as you do. You can't bow out of that or throw the blame onto everyone involved with the project. This project has worked like it did before it closed and it is still working like it did before. Your deputyship has worked in the past, and it works now. Beeb's work as a lead worked before, and it works now. Skt's work as a lead worked before, and it works now. Atelda insert vague subtext here 02:09, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
- We may guide the project, but if some users wish not to comment on much, then what are we supposed to do? Technically, they're still active users, as they're editing and uploading. And I wasn't talking about right before the project closed. I was talking in at least 2011- in which during tweak week, I was a brand new warrior. The members then and the members now are totally different, most of the users we have now hadn't even joined. Tweak week then worked because the users made it work- that doesn't mean it'll work now, though, since those users, save for a couple, are no longer around. —Jayce(02:18, 7/31/2014)
- I don't really get why you guys are arguing about leads and responsibility this has nothing to do with whether or not tweak week is beneficial to the project. If you want to talk about it move it to a separate header or forum and away from this discussion. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith2:23 Thu Jul 31 2014
I don't see why the project needs to be fast. Like I'd even vote for extending the redo and tweak time limits and such. Like as long as it gets done what does it matter? We're not in a big rush or anything. I don't see any deadlines. I say leave both pages open and let things get done at whatever pace we can manage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the project being slower since stuff is still being worked on, just steadier, and if anything I'd say the change of pace is actually pretty nice and easier to keep up with. I haven't seen any users expressing frustration at the pace. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith2:01 Thu Jul 31 2014
- I'd be down for longer deadlines. Atelda insert vague subtext here 02:09, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
Longer deadlines would be good for the tweak page. I think the month for the approval page is pretty good, though. —Jayce(02:18, 7/31/2014)
Longer deadlines for the tweak page would be good, and I wouldn't be against a tweak week, tbh seriously, there has been images for three days. I don't care what you're going through, three days over is too much, and if you are offline, which of course can be explained, some other senior warriors should be getting more active a couple of which are barely active. I think that we should be open-minded about this and at least give it a try. Possibly hold tweak nominations for two weeks or a month then have a tweak week, it may be a huge success. have an open mind to at least try it, and if we go by the fact that just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it'll work now then we should redo everything on the wiki because we did it all in the past. -Ducksauce 03:01, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
Then go tell those leads to boost their activity or else they'll lose their ranking, guys. It's pretty easy to leave a talk page message asking where they are and why they're not editing and things of the like matter. I said the working in the past thing because the userbase is totally different than it is now. I have every right to say that and express my distaste in a tweak week- considering I participated in the last one, and I did not like it. People were too concentrated about getting the characters they wanted and they decided to place everything and anything on that tweak list. I don't need to have an open mind about it, since I already know my opinion on it, since I've been through it before. That is my opinion, and I am not changing it. —Jayce(03:18, 7/31/2014)
- Yes, the userbase is totally different as you say and so the problem of people being too concentrated about getting their desired character is pretty nonexistent with this different userbase, especially considering we have an established system. Streamlining for tweak week I think would be interesting and it might yield different results than the past. After all, PCA then, is not PCA now. Atelda insert vague subtext here 03:38, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
- Again, why do we need to "streamline" the project? The tweak nomination page works fine and there's nothing wrong with it being slow. Most other projects still move slower than PCA even now. Tweak week just sounds like an unnecessary hassle and I know I personally would rather have the project run at a steady pace no matter how slow instead of stalling and then a mad rush to do images that we could have been working on over time. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith3:46 Thu Jul 31 2014
Be that as it may, I'm still against it, and I think the slower pace we have now is fine. It gives the users a chance to think, and really focus on things other than making art that gets approved every other day. Yeah, sometimes things go a couple days, but that's where you tell the leads to kick it into gear, or you can do to them what was done to Iceheart, Frostheart, Eu, or any other inactive staff member/project leader/ect. And I don't think it's non-existent just by what I've seen on the tweak nominations page. —Jayce(03:42, 7/31/2014)
I have faith in the voting process for the tweak nominations. Also, filing a vote of no confidence is hefty business and not to be taken lightly, even if it's for a project lead, not to mention the leads themselves should take responsibility of their activity and even their compatriot's activity. But to get back on topic, I don't mind the slow pace, nor do I think or intend for anything to speed up if we get rid of the tweaks/redos temporarily. Bringing back tweak week can bring more attention to the project, amp up excitement, and be an enjoyable event. Atelda insert vague subtext here 03:54, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with 'teldy here, this would amp up the excitement and fun in the project. Even if we just have one, I think users, especially kits and apprentices who don't normally get to tweak or redo images, would have simply loads of fun doing this and some of the older users would have a good time, too, I know I would. -Ducksauce 04:02, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
Again, keep your shitty arguments about how incompetent and irresponsible you think others are out of this debate over tweak week and onto another topic. Thanks.
I believe I've said multiple times before that kits and apprentices should be able to tweak chararts. It may amp up the excitement for some, but so does making chararts when a new book comes out, and we all know what that does. People scramble over each other and argue and its just a general mess (that we can't avoid). I think we're best off leaving the tweak page as is and letting kits and apprentices tweak images. (Which I really don't understand why. Its 2014 and we're still only letting warriors and above tweak). Also its generally more "fun" to just be able to tweak an image all the time and let there be constantly stuff to work on. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith4:11 Thu Jul 31 2014
I'm against letting kits tweak (especially if they have no experience), but I wouldn't object to at least letting the apprentices take a whack at it. But what could be said for voting? Do we also let the kits and apprentices vote???? —Jayce(04:17, 7/31/2014)
While we can't avoid it, we can learn to try to manage it. People get excited when a new book comes out in order to make chararts because it's not right in their hands. They have to wait for it. Plus, there will always be stuff to work on, just when someone can work on it is something that can be changed. Atelda insert vague subtext here 04:25, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
There's really not though? There are always images needing tweaked or redone but oftentimes there's no new images to make. There's plenty now because of what has built up over the past few months while the project was inactive but other than that its usually dry and tweaks/redos are all we have to work on. We would easily run out of things to do in PCA inbetween. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith4:30 Thu Jul 31 2014
I don't know, people are quite good at finding alts or something to do in PCA, especially when there's a shortage. Plus, we can always cross that bridge if we come to it. Atelda insert vague subtext here 04:35, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
Well, perhaps we could utilize the mentor program if there's a lack of images? Kinda like how colleges and high schools allow summer classes, we could perhaps do some kind of "if you can do [insert description] by [insert time period]", then you can be promoted to apprentice, and then do the same thing for any apprentice who wishes to become a warrior, but due to lack of art, they cannot get ahold of any? Therefore, we'd still be seeing their skill, just in a different form. —Jayce(04:37, 7/31/2014)
And we find an alt, what, once every month? Nah that's not nearly enough to keep the project running constantly. -Rustle it takes a leap of faith4:39 Thu Jul 31 2014
The amount of images that have to be done that are on the list has indeed waned quite a bit. But note that Bramblestar's Storm will be coming out quite soon, in about 3 weeks? The question really is whether or not they can be patient until then. From experience, I know that I was quite impatient between books. What Snowed-senpai is suggesting is that it is something to keep them busy between books??? ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot23:55 Sun Aug 3
That's exactly what I'm suggesting, dear. We could also allow them to ask questions, and things like that too. We wouldn't be uploading non-stop, though, and only allow it for that (I'd say) during certain hours, just like a class would do. Like, we could really use this mentor program. Since some mentors are busy (like, I know Duck's kinda afk right now for something, I think), this could provide another alternative. —Jayce(00:38, 8/4/2014)
Honestly people should kinda stop complaining about not enough work to do between books in PCA, when there's many other alternatives such as other projects (which are, in general, all lacking in terms of activity), or even some overlooked things in PCA, such as the mentor program, which Skye mentioned. If the project doesn't have much new images to make, tweak, or is slow, that isn't exactly a bad thing? Maybe for somebody who's bored (who could be turning their gaze towards another project), but for the project, it means that PCA is up-to-date and not running behind in getting stuff done, compared to other projects who are running slow yet they have lots of work needed to get done. Plus, books don't come out that slowly either. In general, there's usually 2-3 books per year, including a regular book, super edition, and novella. That's actually pretty frequent, in my eyes. Stoneclaw 00:04,8/22/2014
Message to Leads (present and future)
Hey guys, this is just a reminder, but when doing anything on the tweak nominations page, please put the tweak and redo lists in alphabetical order. I don't know if any of you have seen the edit summaries, but I've asked a couple times for people to organize the list that way, and I don't think anyone saw it.. On this note, when you're approving images, please place the appropriate categories on images. Look on already approved images to see exactly what I mean; for example, if you made a queen image for Brokenstar (lmao), the approved version would get the categories Queen Character Images and Approved Character Images. An alternate, no matter the rank, always gets the Alternate Character Images category as well, alongside their usual categories. It's a way we keep track of what images we have, and if they're not in there, then it's harder to find them. Also, please only add the categories after they are approved. From, your friendly neighborhood snowman. —Jayce(23:37, 8/4/2014)
Pause Button
Hi there. Hawky has an idea which she'll most likely get shot for.
One thing us PCA members have to face when images come out with a new book is spoilers. And I know that some people really hate spoilers.
So I want to suggest that there be a 1 day pause on the day the book comes out. On this day, no images can be reserved/made, and what this pause does is it gives users a chance to go purchase the book and get some reading done so that there aren't as many spoilers, such as a character dying. Not only does this make the book more interesting, it gives other users a certain amount of time to work on the other projects, such as PB, when the book comes out, without having to worry about images and such. When the day is over, PCA can start reserving images and creating them.
I know, everyone reads at their own pace and not all people purchase the book on the day it comes out. I also know some members of PCA can get very impatient. But the fact is is that it is only 24 hours, and I'm sure people can wait the whole length of that time. Since time zones are butts, this will only follow wikia time. So as soon as it says the day after the pause day, load on reservations and start creating images.
I believe that's about covered. Have a pleasant day~ ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot18:26 Wed Aug 6
As much as I like this idea, we need to keep in mind that not everyone who is still active here reads the current books. I don't think we should be pausing anything again for the sake of other projects, and we saw what happened last time we did that. People are still gonna do what they want and taking a day for the release wouldn't make much of a difference- the people who edit articles (like myself, Duck, and Beebs) when the books come out are still gonna do that and make art, and the people who are here just for the art will do just that. Spoilers are already all over the place with the names and blog posts, and if you go to google, tumblr, ect, they're all over the place there too. I like the rush when there's a brand new book and everyone rushing around to get whatever image they want is kinda funny and cute since in the end, usually everyone gets what they want...so it kinda works out in the end. —Jayce(16:48, 8/9/2014)
I agree with Snow; I myself don't usually buy the book straight away, I leave it for a few days, if not a few weeks. I only recently bought Leafpool's Wish, I forgot that it was released! I also like the rush too, it's fun :p ❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 13:39, August 16, 2014 (UTC)
Tribe of Endless Hunting Blank?
(Im sorry if this has been said/discussed already, but i was thinking about this)
Well, since StarClan has its own blank, i think the Tribe of Endless Hunting should get their own aswell. Because they are the tribes ancestors, and we know of cats who reside there. (Like the ancients). Honestly, i think this would be a good way for users who don't post here to know the difference if a cat is deceased and resides in the Tribe of endless hunting.
Just an idea. ^^'~Breezeheart~ (talk) 20:15, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking about the Tribe earlier on myself. Although, the Tribe of Endless Hunting doesn't have many members, it doesn't really need it's own blank... why not just use the StarClan blank? I mean, they're both dead cats... Shinx Blitz and Melody 22:38, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we know enough about them to give them a proper representation. Do we know that they don't have ranks, like StarClan? We gave StarClan their own rank because it's been established and stated multiple times there are no ranks within StarClan, but has the same ever been said for the Tribe of Endless Hunting? I'm not even sure about that, and there would only be a handful of cats we'd use it for. —Jayce(22:41, 8/14/2014)
The same could be said for the softpaws, however. There are only a handful of them yet we still made a blank for them. ☽➸ Hawky Void Shadowshot18:01 Sat Aug 16
Because that's a rank within the Tribe. Afterlife isn't a rank, it's a place. StarClan was given a blank since those cats are no longer the ranks they were when they were alive. —Jayce(18:02, 8/16/2014)
I disagree. Even if there are StarClan ranks (which I don't think I supported either), as Cloudy stated, there is evidence that they aren't considered the ranks they were when they were alive. Plus, it would be a waste to make a Tribe of Endless Hunting rank as there aren't enough characters for that. Just like we shouldn't make a big cat blank for TigerClan, ect. :P Stoneclaw 20:21,8/16/2014
Signatures
Hi, PCA! Because most users generally get their signatures on one of your pages somehow, I would like to remind everyone about the Signature policy whether it's enforcing it or following it. Make sure your coding for your signature is on a subpage. Help your friends out too by keeping them from getting a warning. I really hate giving out warnings for such a small issue, but I will. Okay? Okay. Atelda insert vague subtext here 03:49, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
Hey, uh, IDK if this is the place to be saying this (Probably not, but IDK where else to say this, my apologies), but whenever I type "Nosubst|User:Pikachushinx/sig", it always changes it to "SUBST:Nosubst|User:Pikachushinx/sig". Is that a bad thing? Shinxy used Thunderbolt! 14:20, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it is... mine does that and I have no issues. I believe that's just a default. User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 2:50 PM, Fri Aug 22, 2014
Queens
Pls don't shoot me this needed to be asked. Okay, so what are we going to do about the non-pregnant/perma-queen cats, like Daisy and Squirrelflight? Would it just be easier to use the old queen blanks for that, instead of making new line art? User:Notquiterocketwildbokan/Sig 12:48 AM, Sun Aug 24, 2014
It won't be an entire new blank; their bellies would just need to be edited to be non-pregnant. ❄Sorrel It's everything I dreamed 00:52, August 24, 2014 (UTC)